Trumpet 3 missing Notes

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Giorgio Tommasini
Posts: 319
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:25 pm

Re: Trumpet 3 missing Notes

Post by Giorgio Tommasini » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:18 am

Of course in WC mode, triggering a note will occur by pressing a key, rather than when CC2 overcomes a threshold value. We will immediately contact Native Instruments for a fix.

Giorgio

MSchnell
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Re: Trumpet 3 missing Notes

Post by MSchnell » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:53 pm

Giorgio Tommasini wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:18 am
We will immediately contact Native Instruments for a fix.
So this in fact is a Kontakt issue !
Thanks,
-Michael
Music examples -> http://www.boa-sorte.de

Giorgio Tommasini
Posts: 319
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:25 pm

Re: Trumpet 3 missing Notes

Post by Giorgio Tommasini » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:10 pm

Hi all.

Can you first verify that retriggering, i.e. playing a note, overlapping another note (legato), releasing this second note and therefore coming back to the sound of the first note, is indeed working in BC mode with the Trumpet3, or Trombone3, in the latest build of Kontakt 5.7.1 (R35)?

Please let us know.

Thanks,

Giorgio

ModernBard
Posts: 80
Joined: Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:13 am

Re: Trumpet 3 missing Notes

Post by ModernBard » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:42 pm

I'm on 5.7.1 (R35). What I see is this when in breath control mode:

1) Press key down D3, but CC2=0.... no note sounds, as expected.
2) While D3 is held, increase CC2, note starts, as expected.
3) While D3 is held and CC2 constant and non-zero, press key down E3. E3 sounds, as expected.
4) While D3 and E3 are still held down and CC2 still constant and non-zero, lift key E3. D3 sounds again, as expected.
5) While D3 is held and CC2 constant and non-zero, press key down E3. E3 sounds, trilling as expected
6) While D3 and E3 are still held down, bring CC2 to zero, then back up. E3 sounds, as expected.
7) While D3 and E3 are still held down and CC2 still constant and non-zero, lift key E3. D3 does NOT sound, unexpectedly.

Alternately as step 5) While D3 is still held down, bring CC2 to zero, then back up. D3 does NOT sound, unexpectedly.

So trill retriggering works until you get a CC2=0 in the mix.

--John

MSchnell
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Re: Trumpet 3 missing Notes

Post by MSchnell » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:30 pm

I could do a Reaper JSFX script that prevents CC 2 from going to zero but use 1 as a minimum.

I also could so a script that with CC 2 = zero sends a note-off for the last note detected and with CC going non zero sends a note on for that note (unless another note on had been detected in between).

But this of course is a clumsy work around; a decently working instrument would be a lot nicer.

If this really is a Kontakt issue and can't be mended by SM, that would be really bad news, as I doubt NI will react in an acceptable time frame, while I do trust in SM.

-Michael
Music examples -> http://www.boa-sorte.de

Giorgio Tommasini
Posts: 319
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:25 pm

Re: Trumpet 3 missing Notes

Post by Giorgio Tommasini » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:48 pm

Thanks John, you perfectly nailed down the issue.

As you know, in BC mode, a note is triggered when CC2 overcomes a certain threshold (about 9). When it falls below the threshold a note-off is issued.

If the key is still pressed and the time lapse is less than the sample length, about ten seconds, a new note-on is issued.

This is correct, and corresponds to what has been requested by many. If the threshold had been set to zero, one could not control note on/off with the BC.

Retriggering in Kontakt 7.5.1 (r35), in BC mode, effectively works until CC2 does not drop below the note-off threshold. If this occurs after any legato, and therefore after trills, the instrument resets to the initial state. In this case raising again CC2 above the threshold, even if a key is still pressed, does no longer yield a note-on. One needs to press again a key to restore the normal behavior.

The same issue appears in previous versions of Kontakt, as for example 5.5.2.

We will try to fix it in a next release of all our Brass.

Thanks all for reporting this.

Giorgio

MSchnell
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Location: Krefeld, Germany
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Re: Trumpet 3 missing Notes

Post by MSchnell » Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:43 pm

Giorgio Tommasini wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:48 pm
We will try to fix it in a next release of all our Brass.
Great !
So we don't need to wait for NI to fix anything.

I really hope that such a release will be available really soon, as playing with the BC is decently hampered by that issue.

-Michael
Last edited by MSchnell on Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Music examples -> http://www.boa-sorte.de

Giorgio Tommasini
Posts: 319
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 6:25 pm

Re: Trumpet 3 missing Notes

Post by Giorgio Tommasini » Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:34 am

Interestingly enough, this issue is present since the very first release of version 3 of all our Brass. They behave exactly in the same manner in Kontakt 4. Nobody reported it so far ;-)

It's definitely not related to Kontakt, my mistake. Anyway, we will try to fix it, as said, in a next release. Is there anything else that you would like to see in the future update?

Best,

Giorgio

MSchnell
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Re: Trumpet 3 missing Notes

Post by MSchnell » Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:25 pm

Giorgio Tommasini wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 8:34 am
Nobody reported it so far ;-)
Seemingly there are not many Breath Controller users who do enough live playing to develop the "advanced" technique of leaving the key pressed and re-trigger the note by breath, and be hit by the problem.

In fact I did an extensive BC playing training with SWAM instruments, that do not feature this problem, and hence I was able to get used to this playing style, and when staring to use the Trumpet, I found that certain notes in the stream did not play. After that, it took me a while to find out the exact way to recreate the problem.

Thanks for listening to your users !
-Michael
Music examples -> http://www.boa-sorte.de

MSchnell
Posts: 599
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:06 pm
Location: Krefeld, Germany
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Re: Trumpet 3 missing Notes

Post by MSchnell » Sat Dec 23, 2017 11:39 pm

As it seems to last some time until the SM devs can create an update, I did a Reaper plugin.

Maybe it's not perfect, but it helps a lot with that issue,
-Michael

Code: Select all

desc:MIDI Trumpet Bugfix
//tags: MIDI processing filter
//author: MSchnell




@init

CC_MSG      =  0xB0; // 11;
EXPRESSION  =  2;
NOTE_ON     =  0x90;
NOTE_OFF    =  0x80;

minnote     =  52;
maxnote     =  84;
notes       =  0;
notescount  =  maxnote - minnote + 1;
killed      =  0;
e0          =  0; 

@block
  while (midirecv(mpos, msg1, msg2, msg3) ) ( 
    statusHi = msg1 & 0xF0;
    channel  = msg1 & 0xF;
    (statusHi!=0xF0) && statusHi ? (             // Time code etc
//                                                                               x = StatusHi;
      mute = 0;
      statusHi == CC_MSG ? (                   // CC Message
        msg2 ==  EXPRESSION ? (
          msg3 ? (
            e0 = 0;                            // expression > 0
            killed ? (
              killed = 0; 
              i = minnote;
              loop (notescount, 
                vel = notes[i];
                vel ? (
//                  notes[i] = 0;
                  midisend(mpos, NOTE_OFF | channel, i, 0);
                  midisend(mpos, NOTE_ON | channel,  i, vel);
                );
                i += 1;
              );  
            );  
           ) : (
            e0     = 1;
            killed = 1; 
          ); 
        );
       ) : statusHi == NOTE_OFF ? (
        notes[msg2] = 0;
        !e0 ? killed = 0;
       ) : statusHi == NOTE_ON ? (
        notes[msg2] = msg3;
        !msg3 ? (
          !e0 ? killed = 0;
         ) : (
           killed = 0; 
        );    
      );
      !mute ? midisend(mpos, msg1, msg2, msg3);
    );  
  );
Music examples -> http://www.boa-sorte.de

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