String Sections

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GTBannah
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2016 5:05 pm

String Sections

Post by GTBannah » Tue May 30, 2017 12:01 am

Hello!
The demos for the violin, viola and cello are absolutely mind blowing!
Now, that they are all out, has anyone used multiple instances of each to create sections; like eight violins, six violas and four celli?
Do they work well like that?
Thanx!

benjd2016
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2016 1:13 am

Re: String Sections

Post by benjd2016 » Tue May 30, 2017 12:41 am

GTBannah wrote:Hello!
The demos for the violin, viola and cello are absolutely mind blowing!
Now, that they are all out, has anyone used multiple instances of each to create sections; like eight violins, six violas and four celli?
Do they work well like that?
Thanx!
When they release the contrabass, then we will see some people coming forward with some string section work. I think the 3 existing instruments are beautiful but without the bass there is something missing.

Hopefully they will release it soon enough. It's been holding me back to be truthful.

GTBannah
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2016 5:05 pm

Re: String Sections

Post by GTBannah » Tue May 30, 2017 1:12 am

So, have you tried it?

Elrond
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:03 pm

Re: String Sections

Post by Elrond » Tue May 30, 2017 10:34 am

Hi, I tried it, but there is one problem with string tone (in my opinion). The problem is for solo too. They sounds like recording very close to string body or inside string. When you start play unisono with 2 and more strings, you can hear this unvanted "body sound" more. When you apply vibrato, it can hide this unvanted effect, and with section it sounds very good, but in my opinion it must be good on all areas.

I not tested creating section string much, because I don't have time now, and
1. It is time consuming, because you need prepare each string player for playing - set up controller, little different set-ups for more realism and it need tools that are not contain in samplemodeling product, like midi timing for not play all string on same time, because section player are not playing exactly like sequencer. Or rerecord each player, which is more time consuming if you want big orchestra.

2. it is very CPU consuming. On my old laptop i5 2core (4 threads) I can play only 8 strings maximum without big problems (quick passages and other playing styles). If I want more, I need set up low audio sample rate. If I remember I tested maximum 16 string section. What is maximum for my laptop with low audio sample rate.

(I tested only one section - for example violn I. section 16 players, or violoncellos 8 - 10 players. Not playing together because it is not posible in realtime for me. But I want create test with less players section and when composition will be finished, I duplicate instrument and render it.)

3. Problem with string tone I described early. In some cases, strings can sounds like harmonica, or horns when thay play on octave, unisono or both. I know, real strings can sounds too, like harmonica, but when you start concentrate in to sound, you can detect that strings are playing. With samplemodeling strings, it is harder. It is obvious only when vibrato is not used. When you start use vibrato, you can partially hide this unvanted effects. I hope, new updates improve the sound, and when this will be improved, then you will hard tell when real string play or sample modeling string play :)

Btw. I am working on composition with 4violins 2 violas and 2 violoncellos, I have pause from it but when it will be finished I have plan to show in forum.

GTBannah
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2016 5:05 pm

Re: String Sections

Post by GTBannah » Tue May 30, 2017 11:02 am

Elrond wrote:Hi, I tried it, but there is one problem with string tone (in my opinion). The problem is for solo too. They sounds like recording very close to string body or inside string. When you start play unisono with 2 and more strings, you can hear this unvanted "body sound" more. When you apply vibrato, it can hide this unvanted effect, and with section it sounds very good, but in my opinion it must be good on all areas.

I not tested creating section string much, because I don't have time now, and
1. It is time consuming, because you need prepare each string player for playing - set up controller, little different set-ups for more realism and it need tools that are not contain in samplemodeling product, like midi timing for not play all string on same time, because section player are not playing exactly like sequencer. Or rerecord each player, which is more time consuming if you want big orchestra.

2. it is very CPU consuming. On my old laptop i5 2core (4 threads) I can play only 8 strings maximum without big problems (quick passages and other playing styles). If I want more, I need set up low audio sample rate. If I remember I tested maximum 16 string section. What is maximum for my laptop with low audio sample rate.

(I tested only one section - for example violn I. section 16 players, or violoncellos 8 - 10 players. Not playing together because it is not posible in realtime for me. But I want create test with less players section and when composition will be finished, I duplicate instrument and render it.)

3. Problem with string tone I described early. In some cases, strings can sounds like harmonica, or horns when thay play on octave, unisono or both. I know, real strings can sounds too, like harmonica, but when you start concentrate in to sound, you can detect that strings are playing. With samplemodeling strings, it is harder. It is obvious only when vibrato is not used. When you start use vibrato, you can partially hide this unvanted effects. I hope, new updates improve the sound, and when this will be improved, then you will hard tell when real string play or sample modeling string play :)

Btw. I am working on composition with 4violins 2 violas and 2 violoncellos, I have pause from it but when it will be finished I have plan to show in forum.
This is very encouraging!
Thanx for the response! :)

MSchnell
Posts: 521
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:06 pm
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Contact:

Re: String Sections

Post by MSchnell » Tue May 30, 2017 1:36 pm

Elrond wrote:They sounds like recording very close to string body or inside
Seemingly the sound needs an appropriate "location" information.
There are lots of plugins that can be used to create a virual stage.
A free and rather simple but versatile is "space360". I very successfully use it for (real) saxophone recorded by a horn-clip-microphone

-Michael
Last edited by MSchnell on Tue May 30, 2017 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Music examples -> http://www.boa-sorte.de

Elrond
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:03 pm

Re: String Sections

Post by Elrond » Tue May 30, 2017 6:43 pm

Thanks MSchnell. I tried it some time ago, and tried demo VirtualSoundStage, but the "close recording" is not main problem. Problem is, it produce strange harmonics or sound and it make strange characteristic. It sounds like inside steel or plastic room. And this characteristic can't be removed with any plugin.

In my opinion, this positioning must be inside samplemodeling. When orchestra is recording, not all players are recorded and that can change sound character. Only then can be reached realism because, now it is on half way. I think implementing positioning maybe partly remove this "plastic or steel room" character, but this positioning must be computed when is computed string sound. But it is only my opinion.

In the end, I find, I can produce similar effect with algo. reverb and EarlyReflections, without use any position plugin.

Plougot
Posts: 153
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:45 am

Re: String Sections

Post by Plougot » Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:23 pm

Actually, the strange harmonics you're talking about, most likely phasing because of the mathematical redondancies between the instruments, can be avoided with one reverb technology, the fusion-IRs from Liquidsonics. Maybe some other reverbs work, but as far as I know, it's the only one which can bring those dry samples back to life in a way that allows to stack multiple instruments without any issue.
The drawback, though, is that you need one reverb per instrument, which can be quite heavy cpu-wise.
The reverb "family" you're looking for are the "ambient" one, which you can find in all liquidsonics plug ins. Pass your signal through, and that's it.

I didn't do much testing yet on strings, but on brasses, it really makes them come alive, and allow me to have nice, full unison lines.

kevinlee87
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:10 am

Re: String Sections

Post by kevinlee87 » Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:55 am

Anyone tried this with Spat? I'm considering this...

GTBannah
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Jan 30, 2016 5:05 pm

Re: String Sections

Post by GTBannah » Sat Jun 03, 2017 4:38 pm

This is from the Violin description:-
**Each Violin includes several "instruments" with a different timbre, which can be loaded via the main GUI.**

Wouldn't this reduce/remove the chances of phase cancellation or any other problems with the sound?

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